Talk:Kossith
Not Kossith According to Mary Kirby, "'Kossith' is not the name of the race but the name of the pre-Qun civilization". Internally, they refer to the race as 'Qunari.' The term has never been used in game, but does appear in the Dragon Age PnP book. Suggesting we merge and put a note about there being no specific name for the race. -- Maria Caliban (talk) 22:17, November 12, 2012 (UTC) I believe that the devs have quite clearly explained the differences between those terms and also the reason why Qunari don't have a word to describe their race. Therefore, I'm also supporting that the Kossith page to be merged with the Qunari one, while also making several changes to pages where the word Kossith is used in order to describe the Qunari race. 00:17, November 13, 2012 (UTC) I think that the term "kossith" should be footnote on the qunari page, myself. Hitokiri Akins (talk) 00:19, November 13, 2012 (UTC) I agree with the above posters, the term "Kossith" is not even mentioned in any lore we're shown so it may as well be scrapped in favour of Qunari. All ahead full with the merging EzzyD (talk) 00:21, November 13, 2012 (UTC) Based on the information presented in that thread, I agree completely. --''--Isolationistmagi'' 00:23, November 13, 2012 (UTC) Agree with all above. My only addition is that the word Kossith is still used quite widely, and I imagine that this confusion will continue to come up. Is there a way to have a Kossith page that redirects to the Qunari page, indicating that the term is deprecated, and settles the issue once and for all? This could also avoid the situation of a passerby recreating it as a standalone page. --R2sMuse (talk) 03:27, November 13, 2012 (UTC) : I think the point of this change is to avoid the use of two pages, hence the "merge". We don't want a separate page for either, since they're essentially one and the same in the lore we're given. EzzyD (talk) 03:39, November 13, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, the whole confusion is because the lore got screwed up in DA2 and its guide, and mainly MotA, and Cassandra's "Qunari is not a race". I say, merge them, as we're yet to have an in-game "kossith". If DA3 differentiates between the pure horny qunari and the viddathari, then we can have a seperate page for the species. Henio0 (talk) 21:00, November 13, 2012 (UTC) I don't think there's anything else that is going to be added to the discussion, so I believe it's agreed that this page will be merged to "Qunari". The merge only needs to be done now by an editor, which may take some time to do. "Kossith" will be kept to redirect to "Qunari". As for any references in the wiki, that's something editors will need to be on the lookout. I can do certain edits to reflect this change. 02:13, November 25, 2012 (UTC) The article has been merged. Kossith will be kept to redirect to Qunari. I don't know if all the use of "kossith" on the wiki have been changed yet, but I'll look into it again later (I've only checked for linked entries). 23:07, December 5, 2012 (UTC) Re-created Based on the new information provided by the World of Thedas, I have taken the liberty to re-establish the page. If there are any concerns, feel free to voice them :-) 12:41, August 9, 2013 (UTC) usage of the term okay, this big ol book I got makes it clear that the Qunari do not recognize the term "kossith" with any application to them, and that everyone just calls the horned race Qunari. But it is made clear that Thedosian scholars use the term "Kossith" to differentiate the giant ox-men from the Qunari culture. So while the Qunari never named their own race, the Thedosians basically named it... and they named it a name that the Qunari do not like... or approve of... also its implied by the book that selective breeding is used to ensure everyone who joins the Qun will eventually have their descendents look like Kossith...or qunari... or ox-men... or... my head hurts and my nose is bleeding... ralok (talk) 01:23, September 19, 2013 (UTC) :What book is that? As far as I'm concerned, no source outrightly calls ashen giants kossith. Some people misinterpret what the sources say about the term, but what the page states is all true. Provide reference so we can see whether your claim is true, though. Henio0 (talk) 08:34, September 19, 2013 (UTC) ::The world of Thedas, Volume 1. It agrees with the information on the page, its just this page doesnt talk about how it is used in the modern era... ima gonna open it right now to show the pages what I am talking about. on page 40 it says "the horned race's ancient name is "kossith" this term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. Qunari leadership do not evognize even the concept of kossith and few if any rank and file Qunari are aware of the word" basically the word is only used by scholars to distinguish the race from the culture... at least that is what I got out of it. ralok (talk) 15:19, September 19, 2013 (UTC) :::That's misinterpretation right there. Few people know it, and even fewer people use the word. As BioWare writers stated on their forums, it is not a term describing the horned race of today, and the article is about them. "Ancient name" - that is the key. Fereldans come from Alamarri, a subrace of humans, if you will; Alamarri refers both to the tribe of Alamarri and the name of the people of the first humans to arrive in Thedas. But no one calls Fereldans as Alamarri anymore - it is an outdated and ancient term. Alamarri are now Avvars (who refused to submit to Calenhad's rule) and Fereldans, as are Tal-Vashoth (who refused to submit to the teachings of Koslun) and Qunari. Henio0 (talk) 06:29, September 20, 2013 (UTC) You seem to think that betraying the Qun genetically mutates the Ox-men into a different species, anyways didnt this published book come out AFTER those statements on the forums... and as a puplished newer work doesnt its canon supersede forum-canon unless stated otherwise? For the record, I know the Qunari do not call themselves Kossith... but it seems that intellectual thedosians might. By the way, culture does not equal race dude... I am pretty sure the Alamarri were entirely human. ralok (talk) 02:28, September 21, 2013 (UTC) :You completely missed my point. I provided an example of how a term becomes archaic - not that Alamarri are a different race, nor that I think Tal-Vashoth change their genes. And about the statement in the book - it says that the term is used, not that it is used to describe modern Qunari. Let's not read between the lines, but actually read. There is no other word to define an ashen giant than a Qunari, and that is all there is at present. Henio0 (talk) 06:37, September 21, 2013 (UTC) And I would like to point out that even though the World of Thedas came out later, it is written from the in-world perspective, it is not the word of god. 13:34, September 21, 2013 (UTC) :What I am about to do is going to hurt, page 129.. section "Tal-Vashoth" "tal-vashoth usually stick together. Most are kossith. since many in Thedas see kossith and think "Qunari" the Tal-Vashoth are often forced into a life of banditry" seriously guys, in-universe the term is only used by non-qunari scholars, and they only use it when its necessary to distinguish between the culture and the race... as demonstrated in this particular bit of writing. Otherwise its just not used in favor of Qunari. Neither "Qunari" or "Kossith" is a correct term for teh race, but bother are used, Kossith only in rare instances though... not trying to argue that the horned giants technical name is "Kossith" I am just trying to point out that the term is sometimes used like that in-universe. ralok (talk) 15:20, September 21, 2013 (UTC) okay.. I am going to edit this page, whether you guys like it or not... it says in the book "the horned race's ancient name is "kossith"" it doesnt say culture. It outright says it in this book, and unless you can link me to a comment by a developer that is newer than this book, saying that the book is wrong... then this page has to reflect the fact that Kossith is also used as a name for the race... but it is important to state how it is used, because neither Qunari nor common-folk use it... onl Scholars use it (according to the book) and its only ever used in this book, when it is necessary to distinguish between the horned Race and the Qunari religion/culture. ralok (talk) 16:50, September 28, 2013 (UTC) :Again, the book is written from the in-universe perspective. As such, it doesn't make any earlier statements made by writers wrong. However, both statements should be included, i.e. that a) kossith is the name of the culture, b) kossith is used by some scholars to refer to the race. They do not contradict each other. 16:58, September 28, 2013 (UTC) :I didnt say there was a contradiction, but it seems to me they changed their minds on what Kossith means. A few forum posts may be word of god at the time, but when a book comes around to finalize everything then those forum posts become entirely meaningless. Published works should always be considered more important and canonical than non-published ones. ralok (talk) 17:06, September 28, 2013 (UTC) I did the best that I could, I am terrible at changing pages on most wikis :/ sorry if its inadequate. ralok (talk) 17:07, September 28, 2013 (UTC) One thing... before you comment on my behaviour, note that while I disagree with your postiion I am not edit-waring. I prefer compromise to conflict even if I do grumble about the compromise... and thank you for fixing my crap editing > _ > ralok (talk) 17:15, September 28, 2013 (UTC) Race vs culture In the WoT, kossith are explictly described as: * "the horned race's ancient name is "kossith". "the Qun's teachings are so pervasive that, under its law, a person's race does not really matter." - pages 40-41 * "there was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods" - page 127 * WoT glossary: "kossith: an archaic term for a race of large, horned people now known largely as Qunari." - page 179 On the other hand the only known occurence where it is described as a culture is by Mary Kirby in a forum post which is older than World of Thedas, and thus possibly not valid now. * ""Kossith" is an antiquated term, not a technical one. It was used to describe the culture that predated the Qun. It may not have even been the name of a race at all." Based on the date and amount of different sources of this argument, I have reverted the description of kossith back to the one which refers to them as a race. 12:51, December 31, 2013 (UTC) :And you are wrong. "The World of Thedas" is a licenced product written by secondary writers and is full of errors to boot, some of which you can see on the product page. A lead developer's word clearly outweighs (non-canon) merchandise. -- Marvin Arnold (talk) 23:05, February 10, 2014 (UTC) ::Firstly, all the mistakes on the book were oversights. When there are 4 different sources in totally different sections of the book which repeat the same description for the term, then we can safely assume it was not a mistake. ::Secondly, you say that WoT is non-canon merchandise? Do you any sources for such an outlandish claim? 00:14, February 11, 2014 (UTC) :: I'll give no opinion about kossith vs. Qunari as the whole thing confuses me, but World of Thedas is canon. It was written by the lead Dragon Age writers, and the errors that occurred were fixed by the errata adendum they released. Kelcat (talk) 00:51, February 11, 2014 (UTC) I have added the new blog post as reference and put the word "archaic" in there, which means either a word that lost its usage, but is sometimes used, though others replaced it. I hope the article can stay in its current form (though stylistic and grammar changes are welcome) as it does state that it is a word used to describe the race, as well as it being an obsolete word. I wonder if we should mention the WoT examples by name, saying that the word was somehow learnt by scholars and that they sometimes use it, but it is unknown whether it is used correctly by them. Henio0 (talk) 01:05, February 11, 2014 (UTC) I think we should apply the description of the term that David Gaider makes in this topic. It's five days old, so it is definitely the most up-to-date and accurate term description to follow. Also Marvin please do not apply your own opinion on the page while you know that there is topic in the talk page which contests it. 01:12, February 11, 2014 (UTC) I like the way this is worded now, and it seems more appropriate than any other descriptions in the past. As far as WoT is concerned, perhaps the bit on page 40: The horned race's ancient name is "kossith." This term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. could be quoted verbatim in the article somewhere. Kelcat (talk) 01:20, February 11, 2014 (UTC)